of his thoughts where he said, “I recently had a short dialogue. When will you be released?” They asked me, “I am already free. And my soul was my reply. My free soul hovers over the dungeon and over the maple leaf outlines of Belarus.” What does that say about Alice’s spirit and the foundation, which was organized in 1996 and its fight for the human rights situation compared to where we stand now?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
That that says that Ales, just like Alexandr’s colleague Oleg Orlov who stayed in Russia, Ales stayed in Belarus and he knew he would be arrested. And it takes immense courage to do that. But it also actually frees you even if you are in prison. And that’s what he described in the quote that you just read out, that he is actually not in captivity spiritually. In his mind he’s free. And that is because he strongly believes in what he preaches, in what he has done all those years. And he also is feels this direct responsibility for the organization that he founded 27 years ago. He understands how important the work of human rights defenders in Belarus is, how important it is to continue to to lead this movement of human rights, whether you are in prison or free.
Bianna Golodryga:
You said that if Ukraine wins and Lukashenko falls, the transition to democracy will be a quick one. And I’d like to pick up on that, because it does seem like the crackdown against dissidents and against those who are seeking human rights activists and advocating for them has only increased, especially since the election, the sham election of 2020. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya remains in exile. So why do you think there’s hope for a quick transition to democracy in the country right now?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, several reasons which make me belief make this assumption, which I think will come true. First is because the majority of Belarusians do not actually support the government’s policies. That’s a proven fact. We know it for sure. Also, we believe that when this change comes, when this opportunity for a change come. The system of Lukashenko’s regime will collapse, just like Putin’s regime will collapse. That’s inevitable. That’s how it operates. That’s the structure of the system. And we also believe that having a functional and vibrant civil society at this point will help make this transition quick, peaceful and durable. Durable in the sense of the democracy that is going to come because the human rights defenders are the champions of those values that are going to be the basis of the future of free Belarus.
Bianna Golodryga:
Give us a snapshot of what life is like in Belarus right now. Because unfortunately from the outside world, we seem to be covering it only when there’s certain news of meetings between Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin, Yevgeny Prigozhin sightings in the country right now. But we know that more than 500 lawyers have been stripped of licenses and quit the profession since 2020. 36 journalists are currently in jail right now. What is the situation like there?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, in terms of repression, it is daily for three years already. That means daily arrest, daily trials, daily ill-treatment on the part of the police. Daily torture and prisons. In terms of the entire society, we perceive, we get signals and evidence from people in Belarus that the atmosphere is an atmosphere of terror. People not speaking about the silent part of the society will always remain silent. But the people who supported the protest three years ago, and we believe that there are hundreds of thousands of them, only those who took to the streets, and there are many more who have supported that movement. Since they identify themselves, associate themselves with that movement for human rights for a better future for Belarus, they feel insecure that this tension, it is not ending for three years. That creates this atmosphere of terror that prevents people from living normal lives, from raising their children, from having any hopes for a better future.
Bianna Golodryga:
How alarmed should we be at what appears to be closer ties, whether it’s for fear of the fallout, continued fallout from the failed mutiny, between Alexander Lukashenko and Vladimir Putin? Because there did seem to be a bit of him, of Lukashenko in particular that we saw emboldened over the last few weeks.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, it is alarming, especially to the people of Belarus, because we know what Russian mercenaries could do what they did in Ukraine. This is absolutely shocking. So we really care about people of Belarus and we sympathize with them. But it is also alarming to the nations that the neighbors of Belarus, because the things that Lukashenko says and what the Prigozhin says, they do not contribute to a safe environment around Belarus, definitely. And that has already caused some response from Poland and Lithuania in terms of security. And that’s only increases this cycle of tension and insecurity.
Bianna Golodryga:
I have a couple more questions for all of you to just answer and then we’ll open it up for audience questions. And Alexandra’s Nobel lecture, given last December, you posed the question, “How can we make human rights meaningful again?” Do all of you agree that human rights have indeed lost meaning in the world today? I’ll start with you.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Well, I’m more of a pessimist maybe, since my boss is in prison. That’s the outcome of what you describe, human rights losing its essential meaning. That is true, especially for the region that I represent. But globally, I think that human rights are… Okay, I believe in the human progress. It is irreversible, in my opinion, in the countries that are champions of democracy and human rights. In those countries, in the top supporters of democracy in Belarus, human rights are there forever, I’m pretty sure.
Bianna Golodryga:
Alexandr, what would Homer Simpson say to that question?
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
There are A lot of things in common between Homer Simpson and me, because he worked at the nuclear power plant and so was I. Also, my constitution is somewhat similar. Well, joking aside, the human crisis is in evidence, but the difference is that it’s not that Vladimir Putin is trying to promote some different values, it’s just he has absolutely none. His position is that there are no such thing as values. There are only interests, and values are valuable only because they’re used as a face, as a mask for one’s interests.
So people who are not working for him must work for his enemies. They must be foreign agents. However, This approach that there are no values is actually a very infectious approach. A lot of other countries copycatted the foreign agent legislation, they were inspired by this approach. So it is actually quite a formidable undertaking to resuscitate, to resurrect the values. However, other politicians, not Putin, but others, they present human rights and other values. I think I have already demonstrated how in current unthinkable situation, the human rights, the overcoming of impunity could become a foundation of sorts. Human rights could become an important and valuable idea. If every time they will be thought of, they would always be in a corner of one’s mind and will always be applied to every situation. Otherwise, it is just dead letters on a dead piece of paper.
Bianna Golodryga:
Before I open it up for the audience questions, it is symbolic, as we noted that a Ukrainian, a Belarusian, and a Russian are co-laureates. And Alexandra, some Ukrainians do not agree with that decision. I heard from people online and on Twitter that they were surprised that even the three of you would be here together. How do you respond to that criticism?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
First, I want to explain to the audience why some part of Ukrainian society criticize this decision of Nobel Committee. Because sometimes it’s not understandable for international community. But when Ukrainians see this title, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus together, it’s immediately refer us to the Soviet Union time and this big myth about sisters nations, which was a huge lie because there was no sister nations, only one nation.
… because there was no sister nations. Only one nation was dominate, only one language was dominate, and only one culture was dominate. And now when we are in war, and Russia and Belarus are countries aggressors, it’s become extremely painful to accept this lie. And that is why I explain to Ukrainian society that this award not about countries, this award about people.
And if we want to refer to the Soviet Union, let’s refer to the dissidents movements. When people who stood up their ways for freedom from different countries work together, built invisible ties even for their own societies and fight jointly against common evil who try dominate in our part of the world and now we see how history is repeated.
I work with Russian and Belarus human rights defenders for years before this war started in 2014 and even more intense when the war started after 2014. And I extremely grateful for my human rights colleagues that when I applied for them with hundreds requests of help about Ukrainian political prisoners, about finding very about of illegally detained Ukrainian civilians, about doing something in unbelievable circumstances in which their work, they always respond me with help and assistance.
The only problem is that such kind of people as my brave human rights colleague, it’s a tiny minority in Russia. Unfortunately, the majority of Russians either support this war of aggression or decided to take the position of their official government. And this also refer return us why my colleagues told that success of Ukraine will open the past to democratic future of Russia and Belarus itself because it’s helped the majority of Russian to reflect their own imperialistic culture. They need to be defeated. They need to understand that it’s not okay in 21 century to invade in other countries, to kill people, to deny their identity, that they have to find another basis for Russian glory.
Bianna Golodryga:
So I have questions that have already been submitted from the audience, but for those who are joining online, we have asked that you submit your questions via the QR code or via the YouTube chat online.
Here let’s get to some of the questions now. Aleksandr, “What is the best,” to the point we were just talking about, “What is the best, most effective way for us to strengthen and support Russian resistors working to disintegrate Putin’s regime, Russians both inside and abroad.” That question was asked by Barbara.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Well, you see many people in Russia who are working in this area think that they alone, that there are no other like-minded individuals that they are facing along this government monster of a concrete compactor.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Russian authorities are boiling the situation slowly. They’re slowly taking away access to free media, to the social networks. You could only access them through a VPN. Now VPN is being rolled back.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The West, but the Western sanctions actually complicate access to the internet for everybody, including the opponents of the regime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
One would need to think about while not throwing the baby with the water while suppressing the regime, not to suppress also the opponents of the regime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
But apart from, the problem of political prisoners, apart from the fact that human rights defenders are becoming few and far between, we also need to remember… [foreign language 01:39:03]?
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That we should not leave a person alone facing something like that alone.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
My case in point and my teachers are Polish solidarity movement and they told stories about how they used to help people who were facing much the same situation after the introduction of the martial law.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
So then perhaps we will find out something very unusual that the majority does not belong to Putin, that the majority is a number of loners who feel certain way.
Bianna Golodryga:
Kanstantsin, let me ask you a question that Sylvia submitted. “Belarus has been supporting Russia against Ukraine, allowing weapons and troops who go through the country. How can normal citizens oppose the war? Are they doing so and is it not getting media coverage?”
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Belarusians did a lot after the Russia invaded Ukraine, including through the territory of Belarus. They provided media, pre-media and Ukrainians with photos of footage of Russian troops moving through Belarus. But the response, the violent response of the government to those attempts to leak information actually stopped any attempts to do so in the future because people were shot at. The people who just shared photos online received huge prison sentences up to 15 years in prison.
I cannot blame Belarusians not to do so today, especially since the military presence of Belarus is not that, is much lesser today than it was after the war started. However, we can expect that now that the Wagner mercenaries in Belarus, those cases of people expressing their civic position by sharing information about Wagner troops in Belarus can result in new repressions against those people involved result in new violence, prison terms, including the long ones.
Bianna Golodryga:
Oleksandra, this question comes from Janet and I’m glad we were addressing this. Janet says, ” American politicians’ actions are in part motivated by what their voters push for. What do Americans need to understand better about the war that they may not understand well today?”
And this is coming as we’re approaching a presidential election year in this country as well. Typically, foreign policy isn’t a top priority for Americans when they do go cast their ballots. What is your response to that question? Why should this be more of a priority for Americans? And I’m just going to add on to this, what do you make of the kerfuffle that came out of NATO about just how much gratitude Ukraine should express to the West?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
I think that it’s very important to emphasize once again that this war has not just military or economic or informational, but very visible value dimension. This is whereabout values, different set of values.
For example, I’m a woman and maybe you will be interested to know that 60 thousands of Ukrainian women joined Ukrainian armed forces. Among them, my friend Adriana Sosak who left her six-year-old son to fight for her son peaceful and democratic future. And in this war we as Ukrainian women fighting also for our rights because when we speak about Russian world and all type of authoritarian regimes, women play their very assigned role for them in society and family.
And this is a basis for all authoritarian regimes because how people behave between each other is just a projection how power behave to people. And that is why in Norway, men and women have equal rights, in Afghanistan, women are prohibited to study in university and in Russia, the domestic violence were decriminalized because once again, it’s always a projection how power behave towards their own people.
And in this war, Ukrainian women are fighting also for our daughters not to be obliged in future to convince anyone that we are all human beings. So this is very important. This is a war about values, and this war has no limitation in national borders when we speak about value senses and ideas.
You mentioned before my noble peace speech and I told that we have to return human right there meaning because I saw how well-developed democracies for decades compromised with dictatorship and this because they want to obtain some short-term benefits and that is why they based their decision in external policy, not only on economical benefit or security issue, or geopolitical interests, but Russia is a clear example.
Even if you have this short-term benefits, you will have a huge catastrophe in long term when you don’t put your decisions on the human rights values, which you declare. And that is why it’s so important, the understand that there are a lot of things which have no limitation in national borders, freedom, such kind of things. And solidarity is such kind of things and people have a much more impact that they can even imagine.
I know what I’m saying about it because I was in Kyiv when Russian troops tried to circle it and not just Putin, even our international partners saw that Kyiv will fall in three or four days. I received dozens and dozens of call with request to immediate evacuation. But what I want to tell that that time when international organizations evacuated from Kyiv, ordinary people remained and ordinary people start to do extraordinary things and suddenly it become very visible that people who believe in freedom and fight for freedom are even stronger than the second army in the world. That belief in values have a very visible, practical impact and change the reality completely.
So that is why I myself, optimistic in nature, I look in future with optimism. I don’t see the future will be easy, it will be difficult. But I know when you can’t rely on the law or international system of peace and security, when you can’t rely on responsible politician decisions in different countries, you can still rely on people. And that is why I will use this chance to once again apply to people in United States of America and other countries with a call for solidarity. We have fight for freedom. Freedom has no limitation in national borders, only spread of freedom make our world safer.
Bianna Golodryga:
And I think we have time for maybe one or two max more questions. And, Aleksandr, I want to ask you this from Brian. “How do you see opposition in Russia reaching a tipping point to overthrow the Putin regime? When and how do you see people tiring of losing and doing something in mass, either the bureaucrats around Putin or the public?
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Some of my friends every morning watch the news to find out if Putin is still alive.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When so many people want the same thing, perhaps it would happen.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Nevertheless, it erodes one’s consciousness.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When you are a runner and you run and behind each corner you expect to see a finish line, you will not make it too far.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
You cannot maintain a sprinter breathing rhythm and run a marathon.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
People who were in prison under Stalin who were sent to prison for 25 years and who every year expected something to happen, for Americans to drop a nuclear bomb or for something like that, they did not survive. They actually went insane.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
20 years ago I said practically the same words to my Chechen colleagues, when we sent our application to the Strasbourg court.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The Strasbourg made a number of verdicts. It deliberated a number of cases, but nothing happened. Nothing has happened.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
I’m afraid that if people are waiting for a miracle every day, they will get tired.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Nevertheless, when something happens, it happens unexpectedly.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The Czech Republic colleagues had this adage. They said, “We are together forever with the Soviet Union, but not one day more.”
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That’s when that day would come and that’s when we would have to exert a lot of effort. However, it doesn’t mean that we should do nothing in the meantime.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
When a landscape is uncertain and when your maps lie, then it’s important to count on your compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
But not the simple compass. But Jack Sparrow, Captain Jack Sparrow’s compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The one that points at your heart most desire.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And when the Soviet Union collapsed, many people wished for the same thing. It’s not that they wanted anybody dead, it’s just they had a common vision.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And for us, our common vision is human rights.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
Let us try not to lose our compass.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And sometimes your compass helps everybody else.
Bianna Golodryga:
Okay, and one last quick question before we conclude. Every Nobel Prize ask laureate to donate an object to the Nobel Prize Museum. Have you decided what that object is? Do you know what Ales is?
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
No, not yet. Especially since there is not much opportunities to contact him, but I think yeah, yeah, many of his belongings are available, I hope so. Those that are not arrested or ceased by the authorities and I’m sure that it can be done.
Bianna Golodryga:
Oleksandra?
Oleksandra Matviichuk:
Our organization is famous for our ability of mass involvement of ordinary people into human rights work. Like my colleagues previously told, if we left human rights defense only for experts, for lawyers, for diplomats, we will fail because human rights is a special way of thinking how people perceive this world and this way of thinking, then resulting in practical decisions and practical actions.
And that is why we have already provided to Nobel Peace Museum one very common in Ukraine item, it’s item of civil observer. It’s a like special wallet of civil observer who we started this initiatives and teach ordinary people how to provide civil monitoring of the action of power, police, courts, local authorities. Why we think that it’s important? Yes, ordinary people are not experts, but they have common sense. They have wisdom, they have desire to live in a space without fear of violence and this is important.
And common people have to take responsibility on their own shoulders. Now in this war, when I ask myself why we faced with so cruelty, I answered because Russian troops try to provide so much pain to Ukrainian that ingrains this learned helplessness among people and what we can contract to this pain? Just our own human responsibility, that we can’t transfer our responsibility to politicians, to international community, to someone else, that we have to bring this responsibility to our own shoulders and to stand.
And that is why when we speak about people, it’s very important what people think, but it’s their civil obligation to act how they are thinking and to be active in a time of crisis. Because we never choose the country in which we are born. We never choose the time in which we are born. We can only choose, will we be honest people and try to take responsibility and fight with injustice or we keep silence and help evil to dominate? This is the only one choice which exist.
Bianna Golodryga:
Aleksandr, do you know-
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
[inaudible], during the time of the great terror wrote a requiem where she wrote these words, “I want to name every name, but my list was taken away from me and I don’t know where to look for it.”
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
The return of actual names, people, faces, people who were consigned to non-existence, who had been consigned to non-existence that is our main mission.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And we gave to the museum several books with the story, with the life stories of these people, with the life details, including the Book of Disappeared Chechen people.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
We wanted to change people’s perception so that they wouldn’t look at the world from the angelic heights, but to allow them to zoom in.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
If children are to grow up looking at these faces, at these human faces of history, they will grow up to be true citizens. They will understand the correlation point between their actions and the future.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
That’s how slowly we would be able to transform our society into such a society where repetition of past crimes would be unthinkable.
Aleksandr Cherkasov:
[Speaking in Russian]
Aleksandr Cherkasov (speaking through an interpreter):
And these were several books with human faces, human life stories were our gift to the museum.
Bianna Golodryga:
Well, that is fascinating and I think this is a perfect way to end this really enlightening conversation, so I want to thank you. I thank Carnegie for inviting me and having this distinguished panel all come together for a wonderful conversation and very sobering one as well. Thank you all.
Kanstantsin Staradubets:
Thank you.